Over the last few weeks, acts like Post Malone, Zayn, Meghan Trainor, the Pussycat Dolls and Kid Cudi have canceled major tour dates. Whatever their reasons behind the scenes (they range from finishing new music to spending time with family), some have cited “Blue Dot Fever” as a possible cause — a tour staring down too many unsold seats to make the numbers work.
It’s a tough environment for all but the biggest acts right now — gas is eye-wateringly expensive, fans’ concert habits changed post-COVID, ticket prices are higher than many would like, and social media fame doesn’t guarantee a crowd in person.
The Times spoke to Michael Kaminsky, the founder of music management firm KMGMT, Inc, a partner in the Vans Warped Tour and an instructor in USC’s music industry program, to gauge if “Blue Dot Fever” is real, what expenses acts are facing on the road now, and how a digital audience is no guarantee of a packed house anymore.
Is this phenomenon of “Blue Dot Fever” real, or is it just a coincidence for specific artists amid a tough economy?
I’ve represented artists for 20 years, and a lot’s changed. There used to be a lot of steps up the ladder — you’d play clubs at your band’s start, then theaters, then go onto bigger things. What I see now is the middle class eroding, and it’s harder for everyone there. Expenses are way up, some have tripled from even a few years ago.
For a lot of artists, it’s increasingly difficult to tour and have a healthy business. A lot of this is fans’ sensitivity to ticket prices, but kids also have a lot of options now, and going to concerts is not as ingrained in their culture.
Is this in part a generational shift for kids that grew up in the pandemic?
I meet a lot of 18- to 21-year-olds at my university. Growing up, kids going to concerts was a rite of passage. As a teen, friends took you to shows and it was cheap to learn to love live music. Over COVID-19, kids were not able to have that experience. Instead, it was making friends online.
Now, for lot of people, they’ll go to one or two big events a year, it’s like going on vacation for them. I’m a small part of a big festival (the Vans Warped Tour), and I’d say a third of people tell us it’s their first concert they’ve ever been to.
What feels different about the calculations acts have to make about touring now?
What I’m seeing is a lot of bands deciding not to tour in the first place. It’s too expensive, too risky, and there’s not as much upside as there used to be. You see some acts canceling tours, which is a bit systemic, but you’re also not seeing all the things behind that decision — the erosion of the middle class of artists and higher expenses.
Gas prices spiking has to play a role there.
It’s not just gas. A bus used to be $1,000 per day to rent, now it’s $3,000 per day. If you take one night off, for a midsized band, that’s very difficult to absorb now. You see bigger artists playing just 10 cities, but doing multiple nights. They’re essentially saying “If you want to see us, fly out.” That traditional way of thinking about touring is changing or has already changed.
You hear a lot griping about high ticket prices, but artists and promoters set those prices as a reflection of what their costs are. Is there a disconnect with fans’ expectations there?
It’s complex. If you’re Taylor Swift or Beyoncé, there’s still lots of profit to be made. But a big dilemma for artists is that fans feel like art needs to be accessible and valued as such, and tickets should be priced below what their value is to be fair. Then they watch tickets get bought by scalpers and flipped for multiples, so the person making the most money on a ticket is the scalper. But as soon as an artist charges fair value, fans get upset and say they’re being greedy.
It’s hard to watch the person doing the least work, who has not contributed anything to the tour, reaping the biggest rewards. You’re finally seeing artists saying “I can’t price a ticket just because it’s fair. I can’t price it below what someone will pay.”
At the advent of streaming, everyone said that you can make your money on tour. If touring is no longer profitable, how will artists survive? Is every band just a T-shirt company now?
Everyone wants to move to the superfan model. Everyone already pays $10-$15 month for streaming services, so there is new emphasis on merch and VIP experiences. What’s more exciting to me is seeing a whole new subculture develop — all-cash shows at nontraditional venues, and releasing your own music offline. We’re seeing a lot of analog consumption and fashion come back, which ties to an overall broader need for artists to endear themselves to fans, so they find more ways to appreciate meaningful art. We’re seeing the fringes of electronic music rise, and very heavy rock music rise. There’s a tidal change happening in youth culture that is tied to inaccessibility, a response to the devaluing of making art, that’s exciting to see.
I have kids who come through our school and their aspirations are not to play club shows. They want to play backrooms at record stores with 500 kids paying $15 and it’s only prominently advertised in a Discord group. They’re listening to music on cassette. Kids are sick of this AI-accelerated push, and they want to enjoy real art again, and see an appreciation for it as political and subversive.
Is it damaging for artists’ careers to pull down dates over low sales? You see some acts being more candid about that, which is surprising and honest.
When artists are having these problems, they know why these tickets come down. That’s OK, the economy has changed, culture has changed and there’s not much you can do about that. They’re pushed into it.
I’m sure it’s embarrassing, but I don’t know if fans think so. Yet a big part of being famous is people acting like they’re famous. You need momentum and hits to stay famous.
These are obviously fraught times politically and economically. How do these macro-level challenges impact on touring?
It’s getting very hard. I have a lot of tours on sale now, and the day the Iran war started, my daily ticket counts took a huge dip. Gas was up, and even for low-priced tickets it was difficult for people to say that three months from now they’ll have money, so they’re not gonna buy a ticket.
Even with all these new digital metrics and tools, is it getting harder to know what an act’s real, ticket-buying audience is?
It’s extremely difficult to tell what will move tickets. You can have a hit song or be huge on TikTok and sell zero tickets, but I’ve got artists who have played for 20 years, and put them in the right rooms and price appropriately, they’ll sell out.
Tickets are more disconnected from album sales than ever before. Some artists stream like crazy and can’t sell, others stream low numbers but super-serve a touring audience and have fans that want to come back over and over. Data can make you informed, but it takes a smart, dedicated team with history and knowledge.
There are lots of new tools, but there’s still an old-school mentality that’s resistant to new tools. I’m excited by whats happening with the next generation that communicates differently, and you can go to where they are.
All these seem like compounding trends for all but the biggest acts. How do you keep a fan base invested in seeing you live?
At the end of the day, people value art and artists need to value fans equally. More than ever, it’s very important to build and find unique relationships. It isn’t just putting out a song and having them perform. Be respectful, be appreciative. You have to find new ways to speak to them. All my artists make 100% of their living from being artists. Part of that job is understanding the fan base and showing that you value them, and every time you show up you knock their socks off and keep them coming back.
Over the last few weeks, acts like Post Malone, Zayn, Meghan Trainor, the Pussycat Dolls and Kid Cudi have canceled major tour dates. Whatever their reasons behind the scenes (they range from finishing new music to spending time with family), some have cited “Blue Dot Fever” as a possible cause — a tour staring down too many unsold seats to make the numbers work.
It’s a tough environment for all but the biggest acts right now — gas is eye-wateringly expensive, fans’ concert habits changed post-COVID, ticket prices are higher than many would like, and social media fame doesn’t guarantee a crowd in person.
The Times spoke to Michael Kaminsky, the founder of music management firm KMGMT, Inc, a partner in the Vans Warped Tour and an instructor in USC’s music industry program, to gauge if “Blue Dot Fever” is real, what expenses acts are facing on the road now, and how a digital audience is no guarantee of a packed house anymore.
Is this phenomenon of “Blue Dot Fever” real, or is it just a coincidence for specific artists amid a tough economy?
I’ve represented artists for 20 years, and a lot’s changed. There used to be a lot of steps up the ladder — you’d play clubs at your band’s start, then theaters, then go onto bigger things. What I see now is the middle class eroding, and it’s harder for everyone there. Expenses are way up, some have tripled from even a few years ago.
For a lot of artists, it’s increasingly difficult to tour and have a healthy business. A lot of this is fans’ sensitivity to ticket prices, but kids also have a lot of options now, and going to concerts is not as ingrained in their culture.
Is this in part a generational shift for kids that grew up in the pandemic?
I meet a lot of 18- to 21-year-olds at my university. Growing up, kids going to concerts was a rite of passage. As a teen, friends took you to shows and it was cheap to learn to love live music. Over COVID-19, kids were not able to have that experience. Instead, it was making friends online.
Now, for lot of people, they’ll go to one or two big events a year, it’s like going on vacation for them. I’m a small part of a big festival (the Vans Warped Tour), and I’d say a third of people tell us it’s their first concert they’ve ever been to.
What feels different about the calculations acts have to make about touring now?
What I’m seeing is a lot of bands deciding not to tour in the first place. It’s too expensive, too risky, and there’s not as much upside as there used to be. You see some acts canceling tours, which is a bit systemic, but you’re also not seeing all the things behind that decision — the erosion of the middle class of artists and higher expenses.
Gas prices spiking has to play a role there.
It’s not just gas. A bus used to be $1,000 per day to rent, now it’s $3,000 per day. If you take one night off, for a midsized band, that’s very difficult to absorb now. You see bigger artists playing just 10 cities, but doing multiple nights. They’re essentially saying “If you want to see us, fly out.” That traditional way of thinking about touring is changing or has already changed.
You hear a lot griping about high ticket prices, but artists and promoters set those prices as a reflection of what their costs are. Is there a disconnect with fans’ expectations there?
It’s complex. If you’re Taylor Swift or Beyoncé, there’s still lots of profit to be made. But a big dilemma for artists is that fans feel like art needs to be accessible and valued as such, and tickets should be priced below what their value is to be fair. Then they watch tickets get bought by scalpers and flipped for multiples, so the person making the most money on a ticket is the scalper. But as soon as an artist charges fair value, fans get upset and say they’re being greedy.
It’s hard to watch the person doing the least work, who has not contributed anything to the tour, reaping the biggest rewards. You’re finally seeing artists saying “I can’t price a ticket just because it’s fair. I can’t price it below what someone will pay.”
At the advent of streaming, everyone said that you can make your money on tour. If touring is no longer profitable, how will artists survive? Is every band just a T-shirt company now?
Everyone wants to move to the superfan model. Everyone already pays $10-$15 month for streaming services, so there is new emphasis on merch and VIP experiences. What’s more exciting to me is seeing a whole new subculture develop — all-cash shows at nontraditional venues, and releasing your own music offline. We’re seeing a lot of analog consumption and fashion come back, which ties to an overall broader need for artists to endear themselves to fans, so they find more ways to appreciate meaningful art. We’re seeing the fringes of electronic music rise, and very heavy rock music rise. There’s a tidal change happening in youth culture that is tied to inaccessibility, a response to the devaluing of making art, that’s exciting to see.
I have kids who come through our school and their aspirations are not to play club shows. They want to play backrooms at record stores with 500 kids paying $15 and it’s only prominently advertised in a Discord group. They’re listening to music on cassette. Kids are sick of this AI-accelerated push, and they want to enjoy real art again, and see an appreciation for it as political and subversive.
Is it damaging for artists’ careers to pull down dates over low sales? You see some acts being more candid about that, which is surprising and honest.
When artists are having these problems, they know why these tickets come down. That’s OK, the economy has changed, culture has changed and there’s not much you can do about that. They’re pushed into it.
I’m sure it’s embarrassing, but I don’t know if fans think so. Yet a big part of being famous is people acting like they’re famous. You need momentum and hits to stay famous.
These are obviously fraught times politically and economically. How do these macro-level challenges impact on touring?
It’s getting very hard. I have a lot of tours on sale now, and the day the Iran war started, my daily ticket counts took a huge dip. Gas was up, and even for low-priced tickets it was difficult for people to say that three months from now they’ll have money, so they’re not gonna buy a ticket.
Even with all these new digital metrics and tools, is it getting harder to know what an act’s real, ticket-buying audience is?
It’s extremely difficult to tell what will move tickets. You can have a hit song or be huge on TikTok and sell zero tickets, but I’ve got artists who have played for 20 years, and put them in the right rooms and price appropriately, they’ll sell out.
Tickets are more disconnected from album sales than ever before. Some artists stream like crazy and can’t sell, others stream low numbers but super-serve a touring audience and have fans that want to come back over and over. Data can make you informed, but it takes a smart, dedicated team with history and knowledge.
There are lots of new tools, but there’s still an old-school mentality that’s resistant to new tools. I’m excited by whats happening with the next generation that communicates differently, and you can go to where they are.
All these seem like compounding trends for all but the biggest acts. How do you keep a fan base invested in seeing you live?
At the end of the day, people value art and artists need to value fans equally. More than ever, it’s very important to build and find unique relationships. It isn’t just putting out a song and having them perform. Be respectful, be appreciative. You have to find new ways to speak to them. All my artists make 100% of their living from being artists. Part of that job is understanding the fan base and showing that you value them, and every time you show up you knock their socks off and keep them coming back.
Over the last few weeks, acts like Post Malone, Zayn, Meghan Trainor, the Pussycat Dolls and Kid Cudi have canceled major tour dates. Whatever their reasons behind the scenes (they range from finishing new music to spending time with family), some have cited “Blue Dot Fever” as a possible cause — a tour staring down too many unsold seats to make the numbers work.
It’s a tough environment for all but the biggest acts right now — gas is eye-wateringly expensive, fans’ concert habits changed post-COVID, ticket prices are higher than many would like, and social media fame doesn’t guarantee a crowd in person.
The Times spoke to Michael Kaminsky, the founder of music management firm KMGMT, Inc, a partner in the Vans Warped Tour and an instructor in USC’s music industry program, to gauge if “Blue Dot Fever” is real, what expenses acts are facing on the road now, and how a digital audience is no guarantee of a packed house anymore.
Is this phenomenon of “Blue Dot Fever” real, or is it just a coincidence for specific artists amid a tough economy?
I’ve represented artists for 20 years, and a lot’s changed. There used to be a lot of steps up the ladder — you’d play clubs at your band’s start, then theaters, then go onto bigger things. What I see now is the middle class eroding, and it’s harder for everyone there. Expenses are way up, some have tripled from even a few years ago.
For a lot of artists, it’s increasingly difficult to tour and have a healthy business. A lot of this is fans’ sensitivity to ticket prices, but kids also have a lot of options now, and going to concerts is not as ingrained in their culture.
Is this in part a generational shift for kids that grew up in the pandemic?
I meet a lot of 18- to 21-year-olds at my university. Growing up, kids going to concerts was a rite of passage. As a teen, friends took you to shows and it was cheap to learn to love live music. Over COVID-19, kids were not able to have that experience. Instead, it was making friends online.
Now, for lot of people, they’ll go to one or two big events a year, it’s like going on vacation for them. I’m a small part of a big festival (the Vans Warped Tour), and I’d say a third of people tell us it’s their first concert they’ve ever been to.
What feels different about the calculations acts have to make about touring now?
What I’m seeing is a lot of bands deciding not to tour in the first place. It’s too expensive, too risky, and there’s not as much upside as there used to be. You see some acts canceling tours, which is a bit systemic, but you’re also not seeing all the things behind that decision — the erosion of the middle class of artists and higher expenses.
Gas prices spiking has to play a role there.
It’s not just gas. A bus used to be $1,000 per day to rent, now it’s $3,000 per day. If you take one night off, for a midsized band, that’s very difficult to absorb now. You see bigger artists playing just 10 cities, but doing multiple nights. They’re essentially saying “If you want to see us, fly out.” That traditional way of thinking about touring is changing or has already changed.
You hear a lot griping about high ticket prices, but artists and promoters set those prices as a reflection of what their costs are. Is there a disconnect with fans’ expectations there?
It’s complex. If you’re Taylor Swift or Beyoncé, there’s still lots of profit to be made. But a big dilemma for artists is that fans feel like art needs to be accessible and valued as such, and tickets should be priced below what their value is to be fair. Then they watch tickets get bought by scalpers and flipped for multiples, so the person making the most money on a ticket is the scalper. But as soon as an artist charges fair value, fans get upset and say they’re being greedy.
It’s hard to watch the person doing the least work, who has not contributed anything to the tour, reaping the biggest rewards. You’re finally seeing artists saying “I can’t price a ticket just because it’s fair. I can’t price it below what someone will pay.”
At the advent of streaming, everyone said that you can make your money on tour. If touring is no longer profitable, how will artists survive? Is every band just a T-shirt company now?
Everyone wants to move to the superfan model. Everyone already pays $10-$15 month for streaming services, so there is new emphasis on merch and VIP experiences. What’s more exciting to me is seeing a whole new subculture develop — all-cash shows at nontraditional venues, and releasing your own music offline. We’re seeing a lot of analog consumption and fashion come back, which ties to an overall broader need for artists to endear themselves to fans, so they find more ways to appreciate meaningful art. We’re seeing the fringes of electronic music rise, and very heavy rock music rise. There’s a tidal change happening in youth culture that is tied to inaccessibility, a response to the devaluing of making art, that’s exciting to see.
I have kids who come through our school and their aspirations are not to play club shows. They want to play backrooms at record stores with 500 kids paying $15 and it’s only prominently advertised in a Discord group. They’re listening to music on cassette. Kids are sick of this AI-accelerated push, and they want to enjoy real art again, and see an appreciation for it as political and subversive.
Is it damaging for artists’ careers to pull down dates over low sales? You see some acts being more candid about that, which is surprising and honest.
When artists are having these problems, they know why these tickets come down. That’s OK, the economy has changed, culture has changed and there’s not much you can do about that. They’re pushed into it.
I’m sure it’s embarrassing, but I don’t know if fans think so. Yet a big part of being famous is people acting like they’re famous. You need momentum and hits to stay famous.
These are obviously fraught times politically and economically. How do these macro-level challenges impact on touring?
It’s getting very hard. I have a lot of tours on sale now, and the day the Iran war started, my daily ticket counts took a huge dip. Gas was up, and even for low-priced tickets it was difficult for people to say that three months from now they’ll have money, so they’re not gonna buy a ticket.
Even with all these new digital metrics and tools, is it getting harder to know what an act’s real, ticket-buying audience is?
It’s extremely difficult to tell what will move tickets. You can have a hit song or be huge on TikTok and sell zero tickets, but I’ve got artists who have played for 20 years, and put them in the right rooms and price appropriately, they’ll sell out.
Tickets are more disconnected from album sales than ever before. Some artists stream like crazy and can’t sell, others stream low numbers but super-serve a touring audience and have fans that want to come back over and over. Data can make you informed, but it takes a smart, dedicated team with history and knowledge.
There are lots of new tools, but there’s still an old-school mentality that’s resistant to new tools. I’m excited by whats happening with the next generation that communicates differently, and you can go to where they are.
All these seem like compounding trends for all but the biggest acts. How do you keep a fan base invested in seeing you live?
At the end of the day, people value art and artists need to value fans equally. More than ever, it’s very important to build and find unique relationships. It isn’t just putting out a song and having them perform. Be respectful, be appreciative. You have to find new ways to speak to them. All my artists make 100% of their living from being artists. Part of that job is understanding the fan base and showing that you value them, and every time you show up you knock their socks off and keep them coming back.
Over the last few weeks, acts like Post Malone, Zayn, Meghan Trainor, the Pussycat Dolls and Kid Cudi have canceled major tour dates. Whatever their reasons behind the scenes (they range from finishing new music to spending time with family), some have cited “Blue Dot Fever” as a possible cause — a tour staring down too many unsold seats to make the numbers work.
It’s a tough environment for all but the biggest acts right now — gas is eye-wateringly expensive, fans’ concert habits changed post-COVID, ticket prices are higher than many would like, and social media fame doesn’t guarantee a crowd in person.
The Times spoke to Michael Kaminsky, the founder of music management firm KMGMT, Inc, a partner in the Vans Warped Tour and an instructor in USC’s music industry program, to gauge if “Blue Dot Fever” is real, what expenses acts are facing on the road now, and how a digital audience is no guarantee of a packed house anymore.
Is this phenomenon of “Blue Dot Fever” real, or is it just a coincidence for specific artists amid a tough economy?
I’ve represented artists for 20 years, and a lot’s changed. There used to be a lot of steps up the ladder — you’d play clubs at your band’s start, then theaters, then go onto bigger things. What I see now is the middle class eroding, and it’s harder for everyone there. Expenses are way up, some have tripled from even a few years ago.
For a lot of artists, it’s increasingly difficult to tour and have a healthy business. A lot of this is fans’ sensitivity to ticket prices, but kids also have a lot of options now, and going to concerts is not as ingrained in their culture.
Is this in part a generational shift for kids that grew up in the pandemic?
I meet a lot of 18- to 21-year-olds at my university. Growing up, kids going to concerts was a rite of passage. As a teen, friends took you to shows and it was cheap to learn to love live music. Over COVID-19, kids were not able to have that experience. Instead, it was making friends online.
Now, for lot of people, they’ll go to one or two big events a year, it’s like going on vacation for them. I’m a small part of a big festival (the Vans Warped Tour), and I’d say a third of people tell us it’s their first concert they’ve ever been to.
What feels different about the calculations acts have to make about touring now?
What I’m seeing is a lot of bands deciding not to tour in the first place. It’s too expensive, too risky, and there’s not as much upside as there used to be. You see some acts canceling tours, which is a bit systemic, but you’re also not seeing all the things behind that decision — the erosion of the middle class of artists and higher expenses.
Gas prices spiking has to play a role there.
It’s not just gas. A bus used to be $1,000 per day to rent, now it’s $3,000 per day. If you take one night off, for a midsized band, that’s very difficult to absorb now. You see bigger artists playing just 10 cities, but doing multiple nights. They’re essentially saying “If you want to see us, fly out.” That traditional way of thinking about touring is changing or has already changed.
You hear a lot griping about high ticket prices, but artists and promoters set those prices as a reflection of what their costs are. Is there a disconnect with fans’ expectations there?
It’s complex. If you’re Taylor Swift or Beyoncé, there’s still lots of profit to be made. But a big dilemma for artists is that fans feel like art needs to be accessible and valued as such, and tickets should be priced below what their value is to be fair. Then they watch tickets get bought by scalpers and flipped for multiples, so the person making the most money on a ticket is the scalper. But as soon as an artist charges fair value, fans get upset and say they’re being greedy.
It’s hard to watch the person doing the least work, who has not contributed anything to the tour, reaping the biggest rewards. You’re finally seeing artists saying “I can’t price a ticket just because it’s fair. I can’t price it below what someone will pay.”
At the advent of streaming, everyone said that you can make your money on tour. If touring is no longer profitable, how will artists survive? Is every band just a T-shirt company now?
Everyone wants to move to the superfan model. Everyone already pays $10-$15 month for streaming services, so there is new emphasis on merch and VIP experiences. What’s more exciting to me is seeing a whole new subculture develop — all-cash shows at nontraditional venues, and releasing your own music offline. We’re seeing a lot of analog consumption and fashion come back, which ties to an overall broader need for artists to endear themselves to fans, so they find more ways to appreciate meaningful art. We’re seeing the fringes of electronic music rise, and very heavy rock music rise. There’s a tidal change happening in youth culture that is tied to inaccessibility, a response to the devaluing of making art, that’s exciting to see.
I have kids who come through our school and their aspirations are not to play club shows. They want to play backrooms at record stores with 500 kids paying $15 and it’s only prominently advertised in a Discord group. They’re listening to music on cassette. Kids are sick of this AI-accelerated push, and they want to enjoy real art again, and see an appreciation for it as political and subversive.
Is it damaging for artists’ careers to pull down dates over low sales? You see some acts being more candid about that, which is surprising and honest.
When artists are having these problems, they know why these tickets come down. That’s OK, the economy has changed, culture has changed and there’s not much you can do about that. They’re pushed into it.
I’m sure it’s embarrassing, but I don’t know if fans think so. Yet a big part of being famous is people acting like they’re famous. You need momentum and hits to stay famous.
These are obviously fraught times politically and economically. How do these macro-level challenges impact on touring?
It’s getting very hard. I have a lot of tours on sale now, and the day the Iran war started, my daily ticket counts took a huge dip. Gas was up, and even for low-priced tickets it was difficult for people to say that three months from now they’ll have money, so they’re not gonna buy a ticket.
Even with all these new digital metrics and tools, is it getting harder to know what an act’s real, ticket-buying audience is?
It’s extremely difficult to tell what will move tickets. You can have a hit song or be huge on TikTok and sell zero tickets, but I’ve got artists who have played for 20 years, and put them in the right rooms and price appropriately, they’ll sell out.
Tickets are more disconnected from album sales than ever before. Some artists stream like crazy and can’t sell, others stream low numbers but super-serve a touring audience and have fans that want to come back over and over. Data can make you informed, but it takes a smart, dedicated team with history and knowledge.
There are lots of new tools, but there’s still an old-school mentality that’s resistant to new tools. I’m excited by whats happening with the next generation that communicates differently, and you can go to where they are.
All these seem like compounding trends for all but the biggest acts. How do you keep a fan base invested in seeing you live?
At the end of the day, people value art and artists need to value fans equally. More than ever, it’s very important to build and find unique relationships. It isn’t just putting out a song and having them perform. Be respectful, be appreciative. You have to find new ways to speak to them. All my artists make 100% of their living from being artists. Part of that job is understanding the fan base and showing that you value them, and every time you show up you knock their socks off and keep them coming back.
Over the last few weeks, acts like Post Malone, Zayn, Meghan Trainor, the Pussycat Dolls and Kid Cudi have canceled major tour dates. Whatever their reasons behind the scenes (they range from finishing new music to spending time with family), some have cited “Blue Dot Fever” as a possible cause — a tour staring down too many unsold seats to make the numbers work.
It’s a tough environment for all but the biggest acts right now — gas is eye-wateringly expensive, fans’ concert habits changed post-COVID, ticket prices are higher than many would like, and social media fame doesn’t guarantee a crowd in person.
The Times spoke to Michael Kaminsky, the founder of music management firm KMGMT, Inc, a partner in the Vans Warped Tour and an instructor in USC’s music industry program, to gauge if “Blue Dot Fever” is real, what expenses acts are facing on the road now, and how a digital audience is no guarantee of a packed house anymore.
Is this phenomenon of “Blue Dot Fever” real, or is it just a coincidence for specific artists amid a tough economy?
I’ve represented artists for 20 years, and a lot’s changed. There used to be a lot of steps up the ladder — you’d play clubs at your band’s start, then theaters, then go onto bigger things. What I see now is the middle class eroding, and it’s harder for everyone there. Expenses are way up, some have tripled from even a few years ago.
For a lot of artists, it’s increasingly difficult to tour and have a healthy business. A lot of this is fans’ sensitivity to ticket prices, but kids also have a lot of options now, and going to concerts is not as ingrained in their culture.
Is this in part a generational shift for kids that grew up in the pandemic?
I meet a lot of 18- to 21-year-olds at my university. Growing up, kids going to concerts was a rite of passage. As a teen, friends took you to shows and it was cheap to learn to love live music. Over COVID-19, kids were not able to have that experience. Instead, it was making friends online.
Now, for lot of people, they’ll go to one or two big events a year, it’s like going on vacation for them. I’m a small part of a big festival (the Vans Warped Tour), and I’d say a third of people tell us it’s their first concert they’ve ever been to.
What feels different about the calculations acts have to make about touring now?
What I’m seeing is a lot of bands deciding not to tour in the first place. It’s too expensive, too risky, and there’s not as much upside as there used to be. You see some acts canceling tours, which is a bit systemic, but you’re also not seeing all the things behind that decision — the erosion of the middle class of artists and higher expenses.
Gas prices spiking has to play a role there.
It’s not just gas. A bus used to be $1,000 per day to rent, now it’s $3,000 per day. If you take one night off, for a midsized band, that’s very difficult to absorb now. You see bigger artists playing just 10 cities, but doing multiple nights. They’re essentially saying “If you want to see us, fly out.” That traditional way of thinking about touring is changing or has already changed.
You hear a lot griping about high ticket prices, but artists and promoters set those prices as a reflection of what their costs are. Is there a disconnect with fans’ expectations there?
It’s complex. If you’re Taylor Swift or Beyoncé, there’s still lots of profit to be made. But a big dilemma for artists is that fans feel like art needs to be accessible and valued as such, and tickets should be priced below what their value is to be fair. Then they watch tickets get bought by scalpers and flipped for multiples, so the person making the most money on a ticket is the scalper. But as soon as an artist charges fair value, fans get upset and say they’re being greedy.
It’s hard to watch the person doing the least work, who has not contributed anything to the tour, reaping the biggest rewards. You’re finally seeing artists saying “I can’t price a ticket just because it’s fair. I can’t price it below what someone will pay.”
At the advent of streaming, everyone said that you can make your money on tour. If touring is no longer profitable, how will artists survive? Is every band just a T-shirt company now?
Everyone wants to move to the superfan model. Everyone already pays $10-$15 month for streaming services, so there is new emphasis on merch and VIP experiences. What’s more exciting to me is seeing a whole new subculture develop — all-cash shows at nontraditional venues, and releasing your own music offline. We’re seeing a lot of analog consumption and fashion come back, which ties to an overall broader need for artists to endear themselves to fans, so they find more ways to appreciate meaningful art. We’re seeing the fringes of electronic music rise, and very heavy rock music rise. There’s a tidal change happening in youth culture that is tied to inaccessibility, a response to the devaluing of making art, that’s exciting to see.
I have kids who come through our school and their aspirations are not to play club shows. They want to play backrooms at record stores with 500 kids paying $15 and it’s only prominently advertised in a Discord group. They’re listening to music on cassette. Kids are sick of this AI-accelerated push, and they want to enjoy real art again, and see an appreciation for it as political and subversive.
Is it damaging for artists’ careers to pull down dates over low sales? You see some acts being more candid about that, which is surprising and honest.
When artists are having these problems, they know why these tickets come down. That’s OK, the economy has changed, culture has changed and there’s not much you can do about that. They’re pushed into it.
I’m sure it’s embarrassing, but I don’t know if fans think so. Yet a big part of being famous is people acting like they’re famous. You need momentum and hits to stay famous.
These are obviously fraught times politically and economically. How do these macro-level challenges impact on touring?
It’s getting very hard. I have a lot of tours on sale now, and the day the Iran war started, my daily ticket counts took a huge dip. Gas was up, and even for low-priced tickets it was difficult for people to say that three months from now they’ll have money, so they’re not gonna buy a ticket.
Even with all these new digital metrics and tools, is it getting harder to know what an act’s real, ticket-buying audience is?
It’s extremely difficult to tell what will move tickets. You can have a hit song or be huge on TikTok and sell zero tickets, but I’ve got artists who have played for 20 years, and put them in the right rooms and price appropriately, they’ll sell out.
Tickets are more disconnected from album sales than ever before. Some artists stream like crazy and can’t sell, others stream low numbers but super-serve a touring audience and have fans that want to come back over and over. Data can make you informed, but it takes a smart, dedicated team with history and knowledge.
There are lots of new tools, but there’s still an old-school mentality that’s resistant to new tools. I’m excited by whats happening with the next generation that communicates differently, and you can go to where they are.
All these seem like compounding trends for all but the biggest acts. How do you keep a fan base invested in seeing you live?
At the end of the day, people value art and artists need to value fans equally. More than ever, it’s very important to build and find unique relationships. It isn’t just putting out a song and having them perform. Be respectful, be appreciative. You have to find new ways to speak to them. All my artists make 100% of their living from being artists. Part of that job is understanding the fan base and showing that you value them, and every time you show up you knock their socks off and keep them coming back.
Over the last few weeks, acts like Post Malone, Zayn, Meghan Trainor, the Pussycat Dolls and Kid Cudi have canceled major tour dates. Whatever their reasons behind the scenes (they range from finishing new music to spending time with family), some have cited “Blue Dot Fever” as a possible cause — a tour staring down too many unsold seats to make the numbers work.
It’s a tough environment for all but the biggest acts right now — gas is eye-wateringly expensive, fans’ concert habits changed post-COVID, ticket prices are higher than many would like, and social media fame doesn’t guarantee a crowd in person.
The Times spoke to Michael Kaminsky, the founder of music management firm KMGMT, Inc, a partner in the Vans Warped Tour and an instructor in USC’s music industry program, to gauge if “Blue Dot Fever” is real, what expenses acts are facing on the road now, and how a digital audience is no guarantee of a packed house anymore.
Is this phenomenon of “Blue Dot Fever” real, or is it just a coincidence for specific artists amid a tough economy?
I’ve represented artists for 20 years, and a lot’s changed. There used to be a lot of steps up the ladder — you’d play clubs at your band’s start, then theaters, then go onto bigger things. What I see now is the middle class eroding, and it’s harder for everyone there. Expenses are way up, some have tripled from even a few years ago.
For a lot of artists, it’s increasingly difficult to tour and have a healthy business. A lot of this is fans’ sensitivity to ticket prices, but kids also have a lot of options now, and going to concerts is not as ingrained in their culture.
Is this in part a generational shift for kids that grew up in the pandemic?
I meet a lot of 18- to 21-year-olds at my university. Growing up, kids going to concerts was a rite of passage. As a teen, friends took you to shows and it was cheap to learn to love live music. Over COVID-19, kids were not able to have that experience. Instead, it was making friends online.
Now, for lot of people, they’ll go to one or two big events a year, it’s like going on vacation for them. I’m a small part of a big festival (the Vans Warped Tour), and I’d say a third of people tell us it’s their first concert they’ve ever been to.
What feels different about the calculations acts have to make about touring now?
What I’m seeing is a lot of bands deciding not to tour in the first place. It’s too expensive, too risky, and there’s not as much upside as there used to be. You see some acts canceling tours, which is a bit systemic, but you’re also not seeing all the things behind that decision — the erosion of the middle class of artists and higher expenses.
Gas prices spiking has to play a role there.
It’s not just gas. A bus used to be $1,000 per day to rent, now it’s $3,000 per day. If you take one night off, for a midsized band, that’s very difficult to absorb now. You see bigger artists playing just 10 cities, but doing multiple nights. They’re essentially saying “If you want to see us, fly out.” That traditional way of thinking about touring is changing or has already changed.
You hear a lot griping about high ticket prices, but artists and promoters set those prices as a reflection of what their costs are. Is there a disconnect with fans’ expectations there?
It’s complex. If you’re Taylor Swift or Beyoncé, there’s still lots of profit to be made. But a big dilemma for artists is that fans feel like art needs to be accessible and valued as such, and tickets should be priced below what their value is to be fair. Then they watch tickets get bought by scalpers and flipped for multiples, so the person making the most money on a ticket is the scalper. But as soon as an artist charges fair value, fans get upset and say they’re being greedy.
It’s hard to watch the person doing the least work, who has not contributed anything to the tour, reaping the biggest rewards. You’re finally seeing artists saying “I can’t price a ticket just because it’s fair. I can’t price it below what someone will pay.”
At the advent of streaming, everyone said that you can make your money on tour. If touring is no longer profitable, how will artists survive? Is every band just a T-shirt company now?
Everyone wants to move to the superfan model. Everyone already pays $10-$15 month for streaming services, so there is new emphasis on merch and VIP experiences. What’s more exciting to me is seeing a whole new subculture develop — all-cash shows at nontraditional venues, and releasing your own music offline. We’re seeing a lot of analog consumption and fashion come back, which ties to an overall broader need for artists to endear themselves to fans, so they find more ways to appreciate meaningful art. We’re seeing the fringes of electronic music rise, and very heavy rock music rise. There’s a tidal change happening in youth culture that is tied to inaccessibility, a response to the devaluing of making art, that’s exciting to see.
I have kids who come through our school and their aspirations are not to play club shows. They want to play backrooms at record stores with 500 kids paying $15 and it’s only prominently advertised in a Discord group. They’re listening to music on cassette. Kids are sick of this AI-accelerated push, and they want to enjoy real art again, and see an appreciation for it as political and subversive.
Is it damaging for artists’ careers to pull down dates over low sales? You see some acts being more candid about that, which is surprising and honest.
When artists are having these problems, they know why these tickets come down. That’s OK, the economy has changed, culture has changed and there’s not much you can do about that. They’re pushed into it.
I’m sure it’s embarrassing, but I don’t know if fans think so. Yet a big part of being famous is people acting like they’re famous. You need momentum and hits to stay famous.
These are obviously fraught times politically and economically. How do these macro-level challenges impact on touring?
It’s getting very hard. I have a lot of tours on sale now, and the day the Iran war started, my daily ticket counts took a huge dip. Gas was up, and even for low-priced tickets it was difficult for people to say that three months from now they’ll have money, so they’re not gonna buy a ticket.
Even with all these new digital metrics and tools, is it getting harder to know what an act’s real, ticket-buying audience is?
It’s extremely difficult to tell what will move tickets. You can have a hit song or be huge on TikTok and sell zero tickets, but I’ve got artists who have played for 20 years, and put them in the right rooms and price appropriately, they’ll sell out.
Tickets are more disconnected from album sales than ever before. Some artists stream like crazy and can’t sell, others stream low numbers but super-serve a touring audience and have fans that want to come back over and over. Data can make you informed, but it takes a smart, dedicated team with history and knowledge.
There are lots of new tools, but there’s still an old-school mentality that’s resistant to new tools. I’m excited by whats happening with the next generation that communicates differently, and you can go to where they are.
All these seem like compounding trends for all but the biggest acts. How do you keep a fan base invested in seeing you live?
At the end of the day, people value art and artists need to value fans equally. More than ever, it’s very important to build and find unique relationships. It isn’t just putting out a song and having them perform. Be respectful, be appreciative. You have to find new ways to speak to them. All my artists make 100% of their living from being artists. Part of that job is understanding the fan base and showing that you value them, and every time you show up you knock their socks off and keep them coming back.
Over the last few weeks, acts like Post Malone, Zayn, Meghan Trainor, the Pussycat Dolls and Kid Cudi have canceled major tour dates. Whatever their reasons behind the scenes (they range from finishing new music to spending time with family), some have cited “Blue Dot Fever” as a possible cause — a tour staring down too many unsold seats to make the numbers work.
It’s a tough environment for all but the biggest acts right now — gas is eye-wateringly expensive, fans’ concert habits changed post-COVID, ticket prices are higher than many would like, and social media fame doesn’t guarantee a crowd in person.
The Times spoke to Michael Kaminsky, the founder of music management firm KMGMT, Inc, a partner in the Vans Warped Tour and an instructor in USC’s music industry program, to gauge if “Blue Dot Fever” is real, what expenses acts are facing on the road now, and how a digital audience is no guarantee of a packed house anymore.
Is this phenomenon of “Blue Dot Fever” real, or is it just a coincidence for specific artists amid a tough economy?
I’ve represented artists for 20 years, and a lot’s changed. There used to be a lot of steps up the ladder — you’d play clubs at your band’s start, then theaters, then go onto bigger things. What I see now is the middle class eroding, and it’s harder for everyone there. Expenses are way up, some have tripled from even a few years ago.
For a lot of artists, it’s increasingly difficult to tour and have a healthy business. A lot of this is fans’ sensitivity to ticket prices, but kids also have a lot of options now, and going to concerts is not as ingrained in their culture.
Is this in part a generational shift for kids that grew up in the pandemic?
I meet a lot of 18- to 21-year-olds at my university. Growing up, kids going to concerts was a rite of passage. As a teen, friends took you to shows and it was cheap to learn to love live music. Over COVID-19, kids were not able to have that experience. Instead, it was making friends online.
Now, for lot of people, they’ll go to one or two big events a year, it’s like going on vacation for them. I’m a small part of a big festival (the Vans Warped Tour), and I’d say a third of people tell us it’s their first concert they’ve ever been to.
What feels different about the calculations acts have to make about touring now?
What I’m seeing is a lot of bands deciding not to tour in the first place. It’s too expensive, too risky, and there’s not as much upside as there used to be. You see some acts canceling tours, which is a bit systemic, but you’re also not seeing all the things behind that decision — the erosion of the middle class of artists and higher expenses.
Gas prices spiking has to play a role there.
It’s not just gas. A bus used to be $1,000 per day to rent, now it’s $3,000 per day. If you take one night off, for a midsized band, that’s very difficult to absorb now. You see bigger artists playing just 10 cities, but doing multiple nights. They’re essentially saying “If you want to see us, fly out.” That traditional way of thinking about touring is changing or has already changed.
You hear a lot griping about high ticket prices, but artists and promoters set those prices as a reflection of what their costs are. Is there a disconnect with fans’ expectations there?
It’s complex. If you’re Taylor Swift or Beyoncé, there’s still lots of profit to be made. But a big dilemma for artists is that fans feel like art needs to be accessible and valued as such, and tickets should be priced below what their value is to be fair. Then they watch tickets get bought by scalpers and flipped for multiples, so the person making the most money on a ticket is the scalper. But as soon as an artist charges fair value, fans get upset and say they’re being greedy.
It’s hard to watch the person doing the least work, who has not contributed anything to the tour, reaping the biggest rewards. You’re finally seeing artists saying “I can’t price a ticket just because it’s fair. I can’t price it below what someone will pay.”
At the advent of streaming, everyone said that you can make your money on tour. If touring is no longer profitable, how will artists survive? Is every band just a T-shirt company now?
Everyone wants to move to the superfan model. Everyone already pays $10-$15 month for streaming services, so there is new emphasis on merch and VIP experiences. What’s more exciting to me is seeing a whole new subculture develop — all-cash shows at nontraditional venues, and releasing your own music offline. We’re seeing a lot of analog consumption and fashion come back, which ties to an overall broader need for artists to endear themselves to fans, so they find more ways to appreciate meaningful art. We’re seeing the fringes of electronic music rise, and very heavy rock music rise. There’s a tidal change happening in youth culture that is tied to inaccessibility, a response to the devaluing of making art, that’s exciting to see.
I have kids who come through our school and their aspirations are not to play club shows. They want to play backrooms at record stores with 500 kids paying $15 and it’s only prominently advertised in a Discord group. They’re listening to music on cassette. Kids are sick of this AI-accelerated push, and they want to enjoy real art again, and see an appreciation for it as political and subversive.
Is it damaging for artists’ careers to pull down dates over low sales? You see some acts being more candid about that, which is surprising and honest.
When artists are having these problems, they know why these tickets come down. That’s OK, the economy has changed, culture has changed and there’s not much you can do about that. They’re pushed into it.
I’m sure it’s embarrassing, but I don’t know if fans think so. Yet a big part of being famous is people acting like they’re famous. You need momentum and hits to stay famous.
These are obviously fraught times politically and economically. How do these macro-level challenges impact on touring?
It’s getting very hard. I have a lot of tours on sale now, and the day the Iran war started, my daily ticket counts took a huge dip. Gas was up, and even for low-priced tickets it was difficult for people to say that three months from now they’ll have money, so they’re not gonna buy a ticket.
Even with all these new digital metrics and tools, is it getting harder to know what an act’s real, ticket-buying audience is?
It’s extremely difficult to tell what will move tickets. You can have a hit song or be huge on TikTok and sell zero tickets, but I’ve got artists who have played for 20 years, and put them in the right rooms and price appropriately, they’ll sell out.
Tickets are more disconnected from album sales than ever before. Some artists stream like crazy and can’t sell, others stream low numbers but super-serve a touring audience and have fans that want to come back over and over. Data can make you informed, but it takes a smart, dedicated team with history and knowledge.
There are lots of new tools, but there’s still an old-school mentality that’s resistant to new tools. I’m excited by whats happening with the next generation that communicates differently, and you can go to where they are.
All these seem like compounding trends for all but the biggest acts. How do you keep a fan base invested in seeing you live?
At the end of the day, people value art and artists need to value fans equally. More than ever, it’s very important to build and find unique relationships. It isn’t just putting out a song and having them perform. Be respectful, be appreciative. You have to find new ways to speak to them. All my artists make 100% of their living from being artists. Part of that job is understanding the fan base and showing that you value them, and every time you show up you knock their socks off and keep them coming back.
Over the last few weeks, acts like Post Malone, Zayn, Meghan Trainor, the Pussycat Dolls and Kid Cudi have canceled major tour dates. Whatever their reasons behind the scenes (they range from finishing new music to spending time with family), some have cited “Blue Dot Fever” as a possible cause — a tour staring down too many unsold seats to make the numbers work.
It’s a tough environment for all but the biggest acts right now — gas is eye-wateringly expensive, fans’ concert habits changed post-COVID, ticket prices are higher than many would like, and social media fame doesn’t guarantee a crowd in person.
The Times spoke to Michael Kaminsky, the founder of music management firm KMGMT, Inc, a partner in the Vans Warped Tour and an instructor in USC’s music industry program, to gauge if “Blue Dot Fever” is real, what expenses acts are facing on the road now, and how a digital audience is no guarantee of a packed house anymore.
Is this phenomenon of “Blue Dot Fever” real, or is it just a coincidence for specific artists amid a tough economy?
I’ve represented artists for 20 years, and a lot’s changed. There used to be a lot of steps up the ladder — you’d play clubs at your band’s start, then theaters, then go onto bigger things. What I see now is the middle class eroding, and it’s harder for everyone there. Expenses are way up, some have tripled from even a few years ago.
For a lot of artists, it’s increasingly difficult to tour and have a healthy business. A lot of this is fans’ sensitivity to ticket prices, but kids also have a lot of options now, and going to concerts is not as ingrained in their culture.
Is this in part a generational shift for kids that grew up in the pandemic?
I meet a lot of 18- to 21-year-olds at my university. Growing up, kids going to concerts was a rite of passage. As a teen, friends took you to shows and it was cheap to learn to love live music. Over COVID-19, kids were not able to have that experience. Instead, it was making friends online.
Now, for lot of people, they’ll go to one or two big events a year, it’s like going on vacation for them. I’m a small part of a big festival (the Vans Warped Tour), and I’d say a third of people tell us it’s their first concert they’ve ever been to.
What feels different about the calculations acts have to make about touring now?
What I’m seeing is a lot of bands deciding not to tour in the first place. It’s too expensive, too risky, and there’s not as much upside as there used to be. You see some acts canceling tours, which is a bit systemic, but you’re also not seeing all the things behind that decision — the erosion of the middle class of artists and higher expenses.
Gas prices spiking has to play a role there.
It’s not just gas. A bus used to be $1,000 per day to rent, now it’s $3,000 per day. If you take one night off, for a midsized band, that’s very difficult to absorb now. You see bigger artists playing just 10 cities, but doing multiple nights. They’re essentially saying “If you want to see us, fly out.” That traditional way of thinking about touring is changing or has already changed.
You hear a lot griping about high ticket prices, but artists and promoters set those prices as a reflection of what their costs are. Is there a disconnect with fans’ expectations there?
It’s complex. If you’re Taylor Swift or Beyoncé, there’s still lots of profit to be made. But a big dilemma for artists is that fans feel like art needs to be accessible and valued as such, and tickets should be priced below what their value is to be fair. Then they watch tickets get bought by scalpers and flipped for multiples, so the person making the most money on a ticket is the scalper. But as soon as an artist charges fair value, fans get upset and say they’re being greedy.
It’s hard to watch the person doing the least work, who has not contributed anything to the tour, reaping the biggest rewards. You’re finally seeing artists saying “I can’t price a ticket just because it’s fair. I can’t price it below what someone will pay.”
At the advent of streaming, everyone said that you can make your money on tour. If touring is no longer profitable, how will artists survive? Is every band just a T-shirt company now?
Everyone wants to move to the superfan model. Everyone already pays $10-$15 month for streaming services, so there is new emphasis on merch and VIP experiences. What’s more exciting to me is seeing a whole new subculture develop — all-cash shows at nontraditional venues, and releasing your own music offline. We’re seeing a lot of analog consumption and fashion come back, which ties to an overall broader need for artists to endear themselves to fans, so they find more ways to appreciate meaningful art. We’re seeing the fringes of electronic music rise, and very heavy rock music rise. There’s a tidal change happening in youth culture that is tied to inaccessibility, a response to the devaluing of making art, that’s exciting to see.
I have kids who come through our school and their aspirations are not to play club shows. They want to play backrooms at record stores with 500 kids paying $15 and it’s only prominently advertised in a Discord group. They’re listening to music on cassette. Kids are sick of this AI-accelerated push, and they want to enjoy real art again, and see an appreciation for it as political and subversive.
Is it damaging for artists’ careers to pull down dates over low sales? You see some acts being more candid about that, which is surprising and honest.
When artists are having these problems, they know why these tickets come down. That’s OK, the economy has changed, culture has changed and there’s not much you can do about that. They’re pushed into it.
I’m sure it’s embarrassing, but I don’t know if fans think so. Yet a big part of being famous is people acting like they’re famous. You need momentum and hits to stay famous.
These are obviously fraught times politically and economically. How do these macro-level challenges impact on touring?
It’s getting very hard. I have a lot of tours on sale now, and the day the Iran war started, my daily ticket counts took a huge dip. Gas was up, and even for low-priced tickets it was difficult for people to say that three months from now they’ll have money, so they’re not gonna buy a ticket.
Even with all these new digital metrics and tools, is it getting harder to know what an act’s real, ticket-buying audience is?
It’s extremely difficult to tell what will move tickets. You can have a hit song or be huge on TikTok and sell zero tickets, but I’ve got artists who have played for 20 years, and put them in the right rooms and price appropriately, they’ll sell out.
Tickets are more disconnected from album sales than ever before. Some artists stream like crazy and can’t sell, others stream low numbers but super-serve a touring audience and have fans that want to come back over and over. Data can make you informed, but it takes a smart, dedicated team with history and knowledge.
There are lots of new tools, but there’s still an old-school mentality that’s resistant to new tools. I’m excited by whats happening with the next generation that communicates differently, and you can go to where they are.
All these seem like compounding trends for all but the biggest acts. How do you keep a fan base invested in seeing you live?
At the end of the day, people value art and artists need to value fans equally. More than ever, it’s very important to build and find unique relationships. It isn’t just putting out a song and having them perform. Be respectful, be appreciative. You have to find new ways to speak to them. All my artists make 100% of their living from being artists. Part of that job is understanding the fan base and showing that you value them, and every time you show up you knock their socks off and keep them coming back.
